[AI] [0047505] Bug Hillstat

Yes Breakaway has real problem, never win in 1 year. For test i put the REC at 0 for riders and it change nothing, what impact have this stats?

Off-topic.

Please, open the question in another message.

I'm sure it does work.
The video only shows efforts <= 85. I'd like to watch a video with higher efforts.

Hey, good to see someone from cyanide is actually responding. Could you talk about the design filosophy behind this change? Because it's pretty clear the community has a different opinion than the devs on this.

Basically this leads to hilly riders having no chance in hilly races, because the majority of the race will be below an 86 effort. That means, that the climbers will win that stuff.

The majority of a flat race is below a sprint effort, however sprinters win them all the time. That's the same for hilly races.
Try to win Liege with Quintana or Froome. It's hard (a bit like winning a flat race with Tony Martin). While with Valverde it's easy. Unless a big bug appeared since our last tests.

I don't think u can compare a flat stage with a hilly stage like that. A flat stage is an easy stage with an explosive end. So obviously the best sprinters win at the end, because nobody is really exhausted enough to make a difference throughout the stage, maybe 95 pct of the time. A hilly stage is about endurance, about the riders who can cope with the hills the best and are overal the strongest riders of the bunch on that terrain.

Right now, the hill stat does not reflect that for 2 reasons:

1. 85 pct effort is way too high of a cutoff point to be relevant. How often do you actually go over 85 pct effort? i'd say never except for during a final push. You can argue that the ai goes over 85 a lot, but we all know that if we are as reckless with our powers as the ai, we'll never win a hill/mountain stage on the 2 highest difficulty settings. And then i'm not even talking about online gameplay, where preservation of powers is even more relevant.

2. After quite a bit of testing, As far as i can see, the hill stat doesn't even really make a rider better on uphill slopes over 85 pct effort. The difference is that riders with a high hill stat are able to get to a higher heartrate, and ride a bit faster, but they also lose their yellow and red bar way quicker, so they cant hold their effort as long as bad hillers, creating a 0 operation in the end. The difference is also really small, like 15-30 seconds from full yellow and red to empty yellow and red, on 90 pct effort, between an 85 hiller and a 70 hiller.

All of this makes pure mountain riders way too strong on hilly stages, and people like Philliphe Gilbert close to useless.

I uploaded the raw footage of one of my tests so you can see for yourself. You'll also see that a 85cl/70 hill takes more than 10 minutes on an 70cl/85 hill throughout the amstel gold race, (which is not a mountain stage at all) during this interval test with efforts up to 90 pct. That can't be what you guys are aiming for, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeeZhkRZz54&t=986s

just to prove our concerns a bit more, i just played liège-bastogne-liège on extreme. I altered dayer quintana's stats to 85 climb, 50 hill and decent stats around that. Won it first try. I'm uploading the stage as we speak. expect an edit when it's done uploading.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopzAVbK2xY&

just to prove our concerns a bit more, i just played liège-bastogne-liège on extreme. I altered dayer quintana's stats to 85 climb, 50 hill and decent stats around that. Won it first try. I'm uploading the stage as we speak. expect an edit when it's done uploading.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopzAVbK2xY&

Perfect example. A 50 Hill rider winning liege...

I made similar test yesterday with a same results.

I´m sure cyanide can solve it in the patch.

just to prove our concerns a bit more, i just played liège-bastogne-liège on extreme. I altered dayer quintana's stats to 85 climb, 50 hill and decent stats around that. Won it first try. I'm uploading the stage as we speak. expect an edit when it's done uploading.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopzAVbK2xY&

Perfect example. A 50 Hill rider winning liege...

I made similar test yesterday with a same results.

I´m sure cyanide can solve it in the patch.

If they even want to fix it. Seems like they don't.

[3emeType]

just to prove our concerns a bit more, i just played liège-bastogne-liège on extreme. I altered dayer quintana's stats to 85 climb, 50 hill and decent stats around that. Won it first try. I'm uploading the stage as we speak. expect an edit when it's done uploading.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopzAVbK2xY&

I believe that a combination of factors can explain your victory:
- strong back wind.
- strong cheated stats (flat/endurance/sprint/...)

It seems all your opponents are tired at the end. So when they need punch (their HIL stat), they can't use it, so the race is not judged on punch, so you can have no punch, it doesn't matter.

Could you do the same result without wind and cheated stats?

I won yesterday with froome in extreme, kwiatkowski 14º. If you need video, no problem.

Yes please. And even better: a replay.
I perform much better with Kwiatkowski so I really need you to understand how it can be the opposite. Thanks!

Other points:
- I didn't say you can't win Liege with a pure climber, I said it would be much harder: with a very strong team, under more rare circumstances (back wind, ...), ...
- Liege has many kilometers uphill, like a mountain stage. If there is one "hilly" ace that can be won by a climber, that's this one. Can you win hilly races with less kilometers uphill with a pure climber?

[3emeType]

And the sprint stat is also quite broken, when you already talk about it. The most sprints in my game are won by Contador, Yates and similar riders. And I'm talking about flat stages.

Yes, you'll have a fix for that. Sorry for the bug

And the sprint stat is also quite broken, when you already talk about it. The most sprints in my game are won by Contador, Yates and similar riders. And I'm talking about flat stages.

Yes, you'll have a fix for that. Sorry for the bug

Nice

Thanks

just to prove our concerns a bit more, i just played liège-bastogne-liège on extreme. I altered dayer quintana's stats to 85 climb, 50 hill and decent stats around that. Won it first try. I'm uploading the stage as we speak. expect an edit when it's done uploading.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopzAVbK2xY&

I believe that a combination of factors can explain your victory:
- strong back wind.
- strong cheated stats (flat/endurance/sprint/...)

It seems all your opponents are tired at the end. So when they need punch (their HIL stat), they can't use it, so the race is not judged on punch, so you can have no punch, it doesn't matter.

Could you do the same result without wind and cheated stats?

I won yesterday with froome in extreme, kwiatkowski 14º. If you need video, no problem.

Yes please. And even better: a replay.
I perform much better with Kwiatkowski so I really need you to understand how it can be the opposite. Thanks!

Other points:
- I didn't say you can't win Liege with a pure climber, I said it would be much harder: with a very strong team, under more rare circumstances (back wind, ...), ...
- Liege has many kilometers uphill, like a mountain stage. If there is one "hilly" ace that can be won by a climber, that's this one. Can you win hilly races with less kilometers uphill with a pure climber?

Thank you for answering but I think this needs more discussion. I don't think the wind and secondary stats can explain a guy with 50 hill winning, unless the effort at which the hill stat is used is too high.

Can you explain a bit better how the mechanics of the hill and mountain stats work?

At 85 effort is it 100% the mountain stat?
At 86 effort is it 99% the mountain stat and 1% hill? or is it 100% hill? A what effort is it 100% hill, only at 99 effort?

Let's see the factors you mentioned:
Tailwind would make things easier and the gaps smaller because it makes rides faster so the climbs take less time to ride and so it's beneficial for the hill specialists (short climb specialists)

Endurance can't explain the difference because the only way for the mountain climber to drop the hill specialists is to set a hard pace from early in te race and the endurance stat only has an effect in the last kms (unless you've changed that this year)

Flat, resistance, sprint and acceleration can't explain the gap because the hill specialists like Gilbert have higher flat, sprint, acceleration and resistance than Dayer Quintana in that test

So it can't be the "cheated" secondary stats. It has to be caused by the mountain stat being overpowered.

And liege bastogne liege isn't the only race where this can happen. Other hilly classics have much longer climbs better for mountain riders, like San Sebastian and Lombardia